Anyway, I’ll raise this to Brandon.
In the end, he’s the one that has to decide how to implement it, but has valuable feedback in this thread to give him an idea of how to go about it.
It might become a separate thread if he doesn’t want to integrate messaging on the notifications feature request, but that’s also up to him as well.
“I refuse to join the forums no matter what even if it has the exact feature I want” is also a pretty extreme position. 
It’s not really that cumbersome though. Click a link, verify your email address, done.
Check what exactly? Notifications on the site for follows is a net new feature, so it provides additional value. Notifications for books you’ve requested rather than emails (a feature I’ve asked for) is not a net new feature, so I’d say it’s a nice-to-have feature, just like on-site messaging is a nice-to-have feature.
For the same reason AniList, Bookmeter, and so many other sites don’t have messaging features. Those two sites are just as much for community features (e.g. following users) as Natively is, but they also don’t have messaging features. There are already so many ways to communicate directly with people (PMs on the forums, Discord, email, many other messaging apps), that it seems very unnecessary to have yet another way.
This is a false analogy. No one is saying to talk to someone in a public forum topic. Rather, it would be more like being forced to talk to your professor in private in person when you’d rather talk over the phone, and you consider it inconvenient to go out of your way to talk to them in person.
There are so many things that have to be considered when you open this door though. How do you handle harassment and abuse? What about blocking users? What about a setting for allowing messages from anyone or only from people you’ve followed or not allowing messages at all? These are things that the Discourse forums already handles or makes easier to manage.
Also from a technical perspective, it’s a thing completely unrelated to the current Natively functionality that would have to be built. If it’s built using Discourse messages as a back-end instead of being built from scratch, then how does Natively render the messages? After all, Discourse supports markdown, including some custom behavior that is probably not supported by Natively right now.
The simplest thing I could see is showing notifications on Natively for messages that are from the forums, but still forcing users to go to the forums to actually send messages.
Obviously it’s Brandon’s decision on whether and how to implement this at all. And to be clear, I don’t care if this feature is implemented. I’m just trying to provide technical and design feedback and alternate views and ideas in case any of that is helpful.
EDIT: Actually I am against the idea of private messages on Natively if they aren’t integrated with the forums. For people who don’t use the forums it wouldn’t matter either way, but for people that do use the forums having two places to check for two separate sets messages sounds awful. As long as they are integrated I could see having notifications and/or the messages themselves on Natively as a nice QOL feature.
seconding this. i have friends who are on natively, but who don’t use the forum. we talk about books over other social media because that’s where i know them from, but there may be people who i will want to contact that i will only know from natively, and if they don’t use the forum - and there are people like that, so the chance is non-zero - i won’t be able to do so.
i have used renshuu for 8 years and never once used the forum, tbh. same with other websites. this one is an exception because shay encouraged me to reach out and ask for book recommendations, but otherwise i wouldn’t have even checked the forum out.
Not sure about AniList, as I only use it as a information database, but Bookmeter does have private messaging, I’ve exchanged messages with a Japanese reader over there.
Completely agree on this.
Ultimately is all about how Brandon decides to implement. Personally I’d like to be the easiest way while not being an annoying thing that gets in the way, as I’d like the focus to be in other features right now than something like messaging, as you said there are an endless number of alternatives to reach someone (If that person wants to be reachable to begin with).
If someone wants to be reachable on this platform, there are a number of ways. You can have a profile where you describe how to reach you like socials, websites, emails, etc.
Why would it be two places to check for two separate sets of messages if you’re saying that it’s just possible to make them available to see on the site? Opening it on the site should also open it on the forum and eliminate the notification on the forums unless there was a user-option to unsync them. If they’re integrated and made to where you dont have to touch the forums unless you want to, then it shouldn’t matter.
Exactly. But also, I’m going to assume that the forums was not the biggest point of Natively or it would’ve been introduced earlier on. And based off of joining dates that I’ve seen on profiles, it would’ve been here.
I cannot see how there would be talk and concern about gaining and retaining new users if there’s always going to be pusback on adding the basic features that other websites have–especially other websites that are known for tracking more than manga but websites in general. If it cannot boast the same or better features, what is going to draw people? And, unfortunately, no matter what, there will be comparisons of Natively to other sites that came first. Even when I go out of my way to not mention particular sites when recommending Natively, the person listening/responding will bring it up themselves. When I find out that they don’t join/actively use Natively, it’s for the same few reasons.
There’s no real reason to stop people from being able to message outside of the forums other than pure pettiness/desire to make everyone interact on the forums.
Same with me–I never touch forums because a)sometimes they are not extremely intuitive and are hard for new users to figure out and b) I can find them to be extremely aggravating when people who have been there forever act like trolls guarding a bridge when anyone points something out (or just asks about something) or makes a suggestion. same vibes as, don’t like it here? leave! when you point out a small issue lmao I’m in this forum because I can make suggestions instead of flooding Brandon’s email. but, ngl, there will be categories in topics in the forums that I will never touch because I have no other reason to actually be in here.
This strikes me as unnecessarily aggressive language, as someone who is merely observing. I think it best to try to assume good intent. We have people from different cultures, some folks doubtless speak English as a second language and tone can be hard to convey. I haven’t seen anyone behaving like trolls, just putting forth their own opinions in a neutral manner.
Please keep in mind that there is a cost to development. If Brandon decides to not add on-site messaging or to only do so a year from now, that’s not pettiness. It simply means he felt other things were more important.
Maybe I didn’t phrase my statement well. There are two high-level technical approaches Brandon could take:
Both options are the same to users who don’t use the forums since they would only see messages on Natively itself. To those who do use the forums, doing option 2 is important so they don’t have two unrelated sets of messages that need to be checked and managed separately.
this wasn’t directed at anyone in particular–if it was, I would’ve tagged them because I’m not petty or childish enough to do subtweets. I was talking about reasons that I often don’t join forums. Ad hominem attacks are against the rules and guidelines and I have no intentions on violating them. But I will say that your comment towards me can be construed as tone-policing. And considering that we’re on the internet and I have not made any malicious intent clear, that’s not really needed. 
That’s what that section of my post started with. But, as far as the internet goes, sure, I assume good intent until I reaches a certain point and it becomes clear. There’s a particular website I use where one specific user comes and follows me around in the comments to disagree with any theory or comment I might make; I thought I was crazy until I brought it up within the discord of that particular website and the creators told me that I was probably being targeted and that, if I wanted to, I could report them. Instead, I just ignore the comments or I opt to not comment at all.
Not talking about here. I didn’t put “I never touch this forum” I said “I never touch forums” (a general forums) because of those specific reasons listed. There are more reasons as well, but those are generally my main two.
Not calling Brandon petty. However, I was responding to the “they don’t really want messaging if they don’t want to join/use the forums.” idea that was placed forth. <That idea is because it’s an all-or-nothing situation or it’s implying “it doesn’t bother me, so it can’t really benefit others.” Someone shouldn’t have to go as far as putting their email or their discord in their profile to be able to have a conversation with somebody because not everybody who follows each other on Natively knows each other IRL or from another form of media.
Option 2 is what I had always been suggesting. Something that will not make those who have no interest in the forums have to trek over here. It’s not difficult to ignore the forums because of its placement on the dashboard. But, there are also users who update everything from their library and don’t use the dashboard. Sometimes I update books and never click the “I read today” because I don’t tend to go to the dashboard.
At the end of the day: it’s not a fellow user’s job to reject a proposal because they don’t see it benefitting themselves–that’s up to Brandon. And since Brandon can decide to reject or accept a proposal, Brandon can also decide if that’s a proposal that he would be working on immediately or not because he knows what kind of engagement and other activity he is looking for within the website. If I see a suggestion for something to be added to the website that I don’t agree with, I just keep my mouth shut because I don’t have to use that feature if I don’t want to; I don’t spend my time beating down the person who made the suggestion by telling them it’s pointless and that it’s a waste of time that Brandon can use to work on something else because that’s not my place. But if any of you are fellow developers of the website with Brandon, it would be great for a badge or a title to be displayed next to your name on here so that we can know who has the authority to reject a suggestion.
Brandon is the only one working on Natively right now.
I’m just lending a hand at sorting, so he can spend more time doing the stuff he can only do.
I’ve already raised this among other new feedback that has come to Brandon, so now it’s just a matter of waiting to see what he thinks.
This topic was supposed to be about the product request for notifications, not private messages. I think part of the reason the back and forth got this far is because this notification proposal (which I want) was getting co-opted by your private messages proposal (which I don’t want). I want to upvote the former but not the latter, so I can’t simply “keep my mouth shut” when your unrelated proposal would impact a proposal that I support. If you want to propose private messages, I’d suggest creating a new topic for that specific proposal. Then I will happily ignore that topic and stay out of it.
Since it was getting way too out of the original concept, I decided to split the messages.
I think the second option listed is the one everyone was talking about, in the end, right? Instinctively, it also seems easier to implement than the first option.
(I guess it’s fine to leave the quote as it is, maybe just add a clarification?)
Back to this topic, I also want to point out that some places are disabling private messaging on purpose to prevent abuse. Some bad stuff happened on another website I use.
If you just want to use Natively and don’t about social interactions at all, it would be scary (or at least annoying) if some creep could just start messaging you.
For that reason, I think it’s important to be able to block private messages directly on Natively as part of this feature.
(Of course, one can always come to the forum and disable private messaging from here, but, in that specific case, I’m going to agree with @onigiristudies that you shouldn’t force people to go to the forum if they don’t want to)
Wow, lots of discussion on this during the night! 
I’ll just quickly say that I totally see the benefits of personal messaging and some of the concerns (you should be able to opt out & block if you don’t want them). One thing I want to clarify though:
When you verify your email, you’re automatically signed up for the forums.
Perhaps that shouldn’t be the case, happy to hear feedback… but as a result everyone who’s active does have a forum account.
If we are to implement private messaging onsite, I think it’s easiest to integrate more closely with the forums as you all are describing. Simply have a link to private message them on their profile which goes to the discourse private message interface.
You will have to have the conversation in discourse, but I think that’s a reasonable compromise, no? It’s a ton of work to build a private messaging from scratch and as you can see from this category, there’s lots to do 
.
So I’ll approve this, with the caveat of just making it a simple link on the natively profile that leads to the private message screen on discourse, does that work?
That’s a good point. I can probably specify that user preference. I’ll actually probably have to as the default trust level for users private messaging is level 1. I think I can figure something out though 
Also, I just want to encourage everyone to keep the tone tempered here
I know product discussions can get quite heated and I felt the temperature rise a little as I read the thread haha. I’ll encourage you all to be extra accommodating and understanding in how other people might want to use the platform, even if you don’t fully understand it!
Granted, we all still resolved it peacefully because we’re reasonable people… but I think this category might warrant that extra caveat.
For me it’s enough, but I can see the downs on such a thing.
People that don’t use the forums and want to send or read a message, get thrown into a completely different interface / system that they might not be comfortable with it.
That’s why the suggestion to integrate it more deeply by using the discourse API.
Yet again, I’m not sure how many people consider this important enough to warrant such a deep integration between the two systems instead of just linking it.
For me, the main issue would be that there’s no easy way back. If you click on the Natively logo, it just brings you to the front page of the forum instead. I guess it’s still fine if the message screen is opened in a separate tab, though.
I agree with all that. I personally don’t care much for a fully integrated system and I feel like the development effort would be better spent on something else, but if it’s something as simple as just putting a link on profile pages, that sounds reasonable.
I guess that if it’s too weird for some users, some would eventually give feedback about it (even though there’s a strong bias, since those would be people who do not usually come to the forum…)
In all honesty, my request has seem to be buried and overtaken by somebody else and so the original request isn’t even in the field anymore. If I’m understanding your caveat correctly, users would have to go to their profile and click a separate link to lead them to a page to be able to private message, yes? If so, that’s the same exact thing that seanblue wants which would be to just come back to the forums to message somebody. Would there be a notification for those messages displayed on the site or do they have to manually click that link to be brought to the page to even see if they have messages? If the user has to actually leave the site to be able to then they may as well just use Natively for viewing the grading level on books and then just go back to their other sites so that they can do all of the rest of their business 
Or are you saying that it’ll still be within the site and it isn’t forcing the user to take extra steps/leave the website in order to message somebody? Instead, it would possibly be a button that pops up next to the ‘following’ button in order for them to message somebody from their account? If so, would they always have to go to somebody’s profile to click a button to message, or will there be a location for them to click so that they can see and manage past messages?
And: once again I say, especially now that this is a whole new thread and request–there should no longer be any complaints of co-opting and now you can stop expressing your disagreement with the proposal in here–it’s bogging down what is actually wanted and being discussed. It doesn’t matter if you don’t like it–if it’s not going to detract users (because it would retain users), then it’s not something that is going to harm the site.
Complacency is the enemy of progress. It’s nice when there are people who love stuff the way it is, but if it needs to change for improvement, don’t block it because it doesn’t seem to benefit you/because it doesn’t make any sense for you. A new thing to keep in mind when interacting with me while I convey these suggestions that have been brought up by the many people who are using/looking at the site from my recommendation: do not attempt to “nicely” pick a fight with me when you don’t agree with it. Instead, move on; if it doesn’t apply, let it fly. Those people can see everything because I do send them the links so that they can see the conversations that are happening. It’s actually extremely concerning when I get messages asking why somebody in particular seems to constantly be responding and always finding issues or complaining when I make a suggestion. -_- Just leave me alone, please. Be mature and leave me alone.
The end goal is for @brandon to be able to boast better (and some of the same) features that other booktracking websites have. As of right now, the only key difference is that Natively allows books to have grading on difficulty level. Unfortunately, other than that, it does not boast the same features that other booktracking websites has. In order to bring more people, those would be considered to be basic/barebones features so that they would be willing to switch/actively use the site. Then it would be all of the other features that would push Natively over the top. So, yes, it may seem like I don’t care about other features right now except for the ones that are missing, but I’m suggesting things in the order that I believe it would benefit/add to the site, especially because other aspects of the site (i.e., the audiovisual database) are being worked on, it would make sense for other things to be added beforehand so that it’s not an afterthought. It would also be an improvement for the UI. The goal is to not make using the website difficult for new users just because old users like it the way that it is which would be because they have been here a while and are used to it . Now, if it turns out that Brandon does not actually want the feedback that is given to me from a blogger’s perspective, I will gracefully bow out with no offense taken 
but until that is explicitly expressed to me, I will keep conveying the feedback/suggestions. Because this is getting out of hand for me to have to dread saying anything or coming to the forums because I have to deal with nonsense clogging my notifications all the time. 
Was any of this actually necessary to say? I had already stopped responded to this topic after it was split, as I said I would. Did you really need to write two giant paragraphs calling me out and pulling me back into this fight? Don’t preach maturity and leaving people alone when you refuse to do that yourself. Now, if you truly want this discussion to end, don’t respond to me. Leave me alone and I’ll leave you alone. I will – again – gladly leave this topic and stay out of your way if you stop dragging me back.
Guys this makes me sad to see 
.
We’re trying to create a positive community here! If there’s a opportunity to deescalate a situation it’s on ALL of us, to do our best to do that! Both of those last two messages did not achieve that.
If there are real grievances which you don’t feel you can express without escalating, please let me know!
I’m out right now, but I’m happy to discuss shortly. I know product discussions and suggestions can really make people feel hurt and that others are attacking them. It’s a vote of confidence of the community to open this category. Let’s step up to that challenge!
Edit: I was mostly talking about seanblue & maobuchou’s messages, but there have been a series of messages in this thread that could do much better… ugh cmon y’all! We can do this
