My Japanese Reading and studying Experiences - CatDQ

This feeling can be a sign, too. Sometimes certain study activities are just not the vibe. :pensive:

I’ve had the experience before that when I try to switch too much of my study plan at once or start focusing on activities that I don’t actually want to devote time to (but feel like I should for whatever reason) that stuff starts going off the rails a bit and I get lost. You will know best what you feel like you wanna do, so you got this! :fist:t2: Any resource or type of study like shadowing won’t go anywhere if you come back to them later.

I guess also an alternative pov:

When you’re just starting out with this it’s actually a huge task and kind of overwhelming trying to figure out how to improve, and that’s not super fun because you can’t enjoy the ease of doing it or any sense of mastery - like how do I make the sound? What about pitch? How do I make sure I’m getting it right when I can’t tell myself? :skull_and_crossbones: But, it’s also a chance to acknowledge that and just think something like, “right, I’m going to focus on a small improvement and learn x sound in particular, or dabble a bit in phonetics, or start learning pitch patterns and have that be enough for now.” Then you break up this massive, massive thing into a smaller goal that you can work on and experience progress faster with. I’ve found that to be a good way to stick with certain things that I wanted to do. :slightly_smiling_face:

Either way I hope you’re able to refocus soon, I know it’s a bummer when it feels like stuff isn’t working. :people_hugging:

11 Likes

Yeah, I think I got a bit too pulled in with the high from doing so much listening in October (though I did have more time) that I thought listening for shorter periods and adding in some shadowing would keep the motivation but only be a small difference compared with the big impact it seems to have had on my focus and motivation just when I seemed to be getting back into the swing of things. :sweat_smile:

Maybe going back to the stuff I was enjoying last month might help a bit even if it’s stuff I already know, just as long as I’m enjoying it.

This is why it’s taken me so long to try to shadow as I did pick it up before but I knew I wasn’t sounding things out correctly. Having the tutor correct me in real time was very helpful, though I think she thought I was having a laugh at one point when I kept trying to sound a word correctly but I knew it was wrong so kept saying it multiple times and each time sounded worse than the last. :joy:

Thanks for the insight, that’s maybe what I need to try, breaking things down more, rather than just trying to vaguely tackle it and hope for the best. I’m still tempted to take on Dogen’s (YouTuber) pitch accent stuff on patreon but that will definitely have to be next year.

8 Likes

This is so real. :joy:

I went through it a few years back and it was informative! I should probably actually redo it in the new year too because it’d be helpful since I’m actually focusing a bit more on pitch these days. Off topic, but the fact it’s on Patreon and paid for monthly always stresses me to rush through the courses asap while also trying to remember as much as possible which just doesn’t work, though. :melting_face: Not that I don’t want to pay more money via Patreon to support him for creating such a great resource, it’s just a psychological thing knowing that it “costs” more the longer I take to do it. :joy: I’d rather just pay some larger lump sum for the materials to support him haha :laughing:

8 Likes

I’m usually not that into challenges but that one did go the whole hog :joy: This month I’ll be lucky to surpass 15 hours listening never mind anything near last months :sweat_smile:

Awesome, sounds like it could be really useful then. I didn’t actually know anyone who had gone through it so wasn’t sure how useful it might be at my stage but it’s definitely something I do want to focus on so I don’t go too far off the beaten track and struggle more further down the line. I like his YouTub videos (both the comedic stuff as well as the teaching stuff).

Nah, I totally get that. Slightly different but when I started using WaniKani originally, I bought a life time subscription when it was at half price as I calculated the cost (knowing it would take me a lot longer than a year to complete it) and it was the cheaper option so I go for the same, if there’s a one time price or a subscription, I’ll pay the one time price every time.

9 Likes

I went through it pretty roughly and didn’t sit and take notes or anything, but it was good for being like “oh these patterns exist, oh that’s what happens with particles, oh that’s what’s happening at a sentence level, oh this is a thing” and then just keeping that in the back of my head as I kept listening to stuff. If I recall it also has some general phonetics and pronunciation stuff too and a big focus on training your ear to hear pitch vs just memorizing stuff so you can just kinda keep learning holistically on your own. I’d say my lazy run through of the materials still helped me do that!

9 Likes

It sounds pretty decent then. My plan was to try to take notes and complete as much as I could in the space of 3 weeks while on holiday from work, then see if it was suitable to keep subscribing or just work on the notes etc and then resubscribe after a bit, every so often so I could do a refresher and check my improvements.

7 Likes

If it wasn’t during a lesson, I find that’s one of those times where you just have to stop/move on and do something else for 5-10 minutes or so. And then you come back, and somehow it works

Maybe you could decide in advance how much you wanna pay for it in total, and treat the money as if it’s gone already. After that you just happen to be paying in installments.

5 Likes

Yeah, I probably should have just moved on but I’m a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to stuff like that :sweat_smile:
I’ve had that happen with games though, I’ll get stuck then I will put it down til I stop being frustrated and try it again and that time it seems super easy to do.

That’s a pretty good idea :thinking: I could always bring the money each month from a second account (or pay it into the bank manually from actual cash) that has the amount I’m willing to pay total and then once the money is gone, that’s the last month and I cancel the subscription. Thanks, I didn’t think of something like that :slightly_smiling_face:

5 Likes

2024/11/23: early update to keep note of change to study routine.

After the discussions on the Textbook learners evangelize here! page, I’ve spent the last few days thinking about my study routine and decided to switch things up a bit to try to make it more effective and hopefully not burning out in the process :sweat_smile:.
I’ve taken a lot of inspiration from @taiyousea (thank you again for the insight into your study routines!).

Due to my shifts and other commitments, I’ve only really got 3 days that I can use for long sessions of intensive studying, but worked out as long as I use the hour or two down time on working days to read/ listen to podcasts/ audiobooks, I may actually be able to make this work more effectively and pull my level up quicker than I currently am with my haphazard studying so far.

I’m thinking my biggest issue is that I currently don’t do a lot of deep intensive studying (analysing all aspects of it like I used to) and what I do do, mostly comes from the textbooks in the form of answering the questions and trying to figure out why my answer is wrong when it doesn’t match the answer key. But those study sessions aren’t as intensive as they could be since I’m just mentally noting the differences or the new words and grammar but not actively using them until much further down the line. Starting to wonder how I’ve got as far as I have considering how leisurely my studying seems to have been in the last 2 years with a lot of time spent but not much actual progress seeming to be made :sweat_smile:. Hence the need for a switch up.

I’m going to try to do 4 hours split into 2 long sessions (2hrs each) following a similar structure to taiyousea’s Tobira study breakdown but using みんなの日本語 (blue book since I can recognise the grammar but think I went through it too quick to fully grasp it, if it works, I’ll be working out a similar study routine for textbooks going forwards) and use an additional 3-4 hours spread across the day for working on writing practice/ Kanji practice/ additional vocabulary study etc using some of the additional textbooks I’ve got. I’ll also still be doing my language exchanges and my tutor lesson which should also show faster improvement if this works as I hope it will.

If the additional 3-4 hours a day is a struggle then I may switch part of those hours to reading/ listening and use some of the extra hours through the week for more intensive studying again.

I’ll review again in January (around 6 weeks from now) to see if I feel it’s working the way I expect it to or if I need to make any adjustments. :slightly_smiling_face:

11 Likes

2024/11/24:

Already made an edit :rofl:
Decided みんなの日本語 is probably not suitable for what I want to do so will need to try a few options or just bite the bullet and go buy Tobira to use instead :joy:

6 Likes

Just curious what were the points since I was interested in MNN as it is used in most of the remote community college classes here (I’m still internally debating if whether I should join a B1 course next trimester).

If you pick up Tobira, let me know! I am currently in chapter 4 but I took a longer break and want to continue going forward in January (with an aimed pace of 2-3 weeks per chapter). Would be nice to have study buddies since some material there doesn’t have an answer key.

3 Likes

I’ve completed both the red and blue beginner textbooks (and have both sets of intermediate textbooks as well) for MNN but the blue one I went through very quickly over the last month or so. Because I went through it relatively quickly and I’m not fully remembering all the grammar points, I decided I was going to use it in a similar way to how taiyousea had described using Tobira in a University class. I thought the longer study sessions focused on one part at a time might help me more than the way I had been studying but then realised it wouldn’t work the way I intended it to so switched to something different instead.

Don’t get me wrong though, MNN is a fantastic textbook to use though there are some parts that may need help from a tutor or such (I wasn’t understanding why some of my answers were wrong or how to fix them when working through it on my own). I feel it is very straight forward once I understood the gist of how it worked. It’s also one of the books that helped me understand how to read quicker in Japanese as it forces you to use Japanese. I like how MNN is set out, I like the fact there are focus books for reading/ listening and Kanji and I also like the fact that it’s full Japanese but was simple enough for me to understand even when I first started using it. I also liked the ミラーさん novels as they were the first books I really read in Japanese and felt they were easier to understand since I had most of the vocab and grammar from the textbook.

I’m not bashing other textbooks though, I just feel that for me MNN was the one that worked best (I’ve completed Genki 1 & 2, Nihongo Fun & Easy and also Japanese from Zero up to half way through book 3).

I will be working back through both MNN textbooks again to clean up vocab and get a better understanding of the grammar points again before I do the intermediate ones at a later date.

It will probably be around mid to end of January before I can pick up Tobira but would be happy to join you. :blush:
Which book/ book set are you working on though as I’ve seen a few different ones? Just so I make sure to get the right one.

2 Likes

Is MNN structured that differently as a textbook? Again just asking because I know literally nothing about it.

For Tobira, there should only be once advanced book which is this Tobira | L22

There’s also a grammar and a kanji companion book, I did get the grammar one (highly recommended since the main book doesn’t have exercises). The kanji one is a bit too detailed for my taste, I would only use it if it’s your only way of studying kanji. They also have free PDFs for each chapter on their website, for me the kanji exercises on there are plenty sufficient.

5 Likes

I may be getting a copy as well, and would be happy to study buddy, so I actually use it :joy:

4 Likes

I can’t compare it to Tobira as I haven’t used Tobira but it does seem to be different to the other textbooks I have. MNN has several different books in each set and each book helps you to focus on one aspect at a time (8 textbooks and 1 novel for each of the beginner sets and 4 textbooks for each of the intermediate sets). For the beginner sets there is the red set (1st set) and the blue set (2nd set).

For each set there is the main textbook all in Japanese and the companion translation and grammar notes (in English or a range of other languages). In addition, for the beginner set there is a Kanji textbook, Kanji workbook, reading topics book, listening tasks book, writing practice book, a standard question book (basically worksheets compiled into a book for additional practice) and then the novel for that set. There is also an additional writing practice book that covers grammar from both beginner textbooks, I have it but haven’t used it yet.

Each textbook is set out slightly differently and has their own removable answer book for that book at the back. The translation and grammar notes book has your vocab list for the lesson at the start, a page of translations for the conversation/ example questions in the main text book, a page of useful info (might be body parts, country names, how to use a phone card or atm etc) then 2 pages of grammar points (usually between 5-8 across the 2 pages). The main textbook then has the sample conversation, 2 pages of example sentences using the grammar points for that lesson (a pre-built sentences list and a table like list to show how to swap in alternative words using the grammar points). Then 5 pages of practice using the grammar, particles and vocab in questions, practice conversations, listen & answer and true or false questions.

I feel like there is a lot more practice questions and opportunities to practice reading and listening in MNN than the other textbooks I’ve used if you use the additional books too and it covers more grammar as well. It seems more comprehensive, but to buy all of the books can be more expensive so if you’re just looking for the foundations, just the textbook and translation & grammar book are all you actually need.

If you want to see some example pages, just give me a shout as I have all of the MNN books.

Cool, thanks. :sunglasses: I’ll pick it up when I can early next year. Will end up getting all 3 only because I prefer working from books than online and I’m one of the strange people who like practicing Kanji :joy:

4 Likes

2024/11/26: proper weekly update:

TL:DR - starting to burn out again so switching things up to try to help me stay motivated while still allowing me to have fun and finally making progress with shadowing.


I’ve noted a bit of this above but the last week hasn’t been great for focus or for motivation. I feel I’ve been on a steady down slope since the beginning of the month, it got worse after I finished みんなの日本語 blue textbook and tried to switch back to 新完全マスター books. I don’t quite feel in burnout yet but like I’m heading back there :sweat_smile: not because of Japanese, just because of a lot of changes recently have made me feel more overwhelmed, which has a knock on effect. So I’ve been trying to find a way to get back into studying again so I can progress and not keep forgetting all the stuff I’ve learned (which is how I’ve felt since not being able to focus on reading recently even though I want to read).

After reading through all the fab comments in the “Textbook learners evangelize here” post, I decided to try out a routine, inspired by Taiyousea’s University study routine, the last few days. I think for me, the premise works and is something that I need (the intensive studying of one section across a few days) but the times and content I was trying to use was contributing to worsen the burnout sensation over the last few days. Decided that I maybe need to start on shorter times and build up even if it takes me longer to do. It’s the intensive study that I think is what I’ve been missing and why my learning seems to stagnate longer on the plateau phrases as well as take longer for me to be able to put the words and grammar into my long term memory since SRS is extremely difficult for me to use effectively and doesn’t seem to help me for grammar or vocab unless I’m seeing it in context.

Slight rant about my inability to learn effectively using SRS

I see this effect with WaniKani, especially with me being stuck for the last 3 months on lv 14 because I’m not actually learning the words when I’m using it, I’m not correctly remembering them even though I’ve seen them umpteen times now, I’m only using WaniKani to try to help me pick up the words I’m seeing regularly when reading which is where I am remembering and recognising the words from even though it’s more infrequent, it’s weird and I don’t know why flashcards don’t seem to help me. I also found the same issue when I was using physical flashcards while trying to learn hiragana and katakana and only ended up learning them by writing them out and reading them countless times, there’s a few katakana than still trip me up even now.

I’ve tried making my own both physical flashcards and digital ones. I had anki on my android phone before getting an iPhone, and also tried quizlet and the flashcard app in one of the dictionary apps I have. I wish it worked because it would save me a lot of time and hassle compared to how I review things by going through the textbook several times and redoing different textbooks covering the same stuff.

The biggest thing that helped me to get a lot of the N5 stuff into my long term memory was reading through the ミラーさん novels, Tadoku free books and then progressing onto the children’s books I have read. Now if I could just find a faster way to get all the N4 and N3 stuff in there, I would be over the moon. Anyway, rant over😂

On a better note, I now have some small topics to focus on each week linked to previous topics when speaking. My language exchanges we are now doing small sessions of specific subjects that lead onto the next subject, so we recently started with work, progressed to transport and directions (how to get to work and other places) then tickets (how to purchase these as well as the process for using certain transport), next week is directions to certain places near places I’ve mentioned before (in the cities) and purchasing fuel etc. They may seem mundane topics but I’m noticing patterns with how to use similar grammar for explaining different things as well as getting both the Scottish and Japanese methods/ differences for these so there is some cultural stuff mixed in. We’re both being quite surprised by the differences for relatively simple every day things.

For my tutor lessons we’re continuing with free talking though I’m now starting to open up the conversation to new things and treating it more like a conversation between friends than just me talking at someone/ responding to questions. Today’s lesson wasn’t that great from my end, I stumbled a lot and didn’t have a lot of the words I wanted or even alternatives but did manage a bit.

We are also Shadowing (this week went better and it only took me about 6-10 minutes to go through the section in two passes (last week it was almost 30 minutes for me to go through it struggling with almost every line), first as person A then as person B with my tutor being the second person in the conversation. We picked up that my issues with incorrect pronunciation were with Ko, So, A, Do words so those and the next section are my practice for next week.

For Shadowing, I’ve started to practice by listening with my headphones on, speaking out loud and recording my voice with my phone though I need to pic up a small microphone for better pick up as the tripod doesn’t hold the phone high enough and I can’t listen and record at the same time using the iPad. I have found that the recording when I play it back and play the Shadowing audio again, I can usually pick up where I’m off (I had also noticed my issue with Ko, So, A, Do words) so think this is going to be helpful going forwards.

Reading has mostly been the Breaking into Japanese literature book this week, mostly read while at work. I was getting the gist of the story though reading the English translation and actually translating the Japanese (which is what I tried as an alternative for Tobira - which I don’t have yet - for my study session on Sunday), shows that there were some liberties taken with additional descriptions in the English translation. I can understand where some of the add ins may have been implied, but some were just thrown in there and had no link to the Japanese at all.

Also decided that if I have enough money at end of December, I’ll add Tobira to the books I’ve got waiting on CD Japan. Decided I can never have enough textbooks. Besides, if any of my friends nearby decide they want to start learning Japanese they can borrow them when I’m done, or if they want a flick through to see if it works for them, I can let them test them out :joy:

Plan for the next few weeks until beginning of next year (since there’s only 5 weeks now :grimacing:):

  • Find a way to incorporate intensive study into my routine both for reading and listening that doesn’t contribute to worsening my burnout.
  • Find a way to keep motivated (just wanting to do things isn’t enough now).
  • Review the grammar from みんなの日本語 blue textbook, see if that may help with both of the above (as I’m sure it will help me understand more while reading and give a better foundation for me to work from).
  • Get back to reading ふしぎ駄菓子屋銭天堂 series (since that seems to have fallen by the way side recently as well but I was really enjoying it).
  • Continue Shadowing, doing 1-2 sessions a day then final session for each section in my lesson, also continue with the playback and trying to correct my mistakes as well as reviewing the previous section to ensure that I don’t go back to old habits

I have both old and new versions of Shadowing 日本語を話そ beginner to intermediate and the old version of the intermediate to advanced one with a view to get the new intermediate to advanced one as the beginner one has differences in the content covered, and the online audio is easier to access than the CD.

8 Likes

I feel that this happens often with SRS, that you start accumulating leeches. Ultimately it was the reason why I dropped Wanikani at around level 43. SRS is hailed by some people as the ultimate study tool but what it does is actually prioritize quantity over quality and help you accumulate a lot of vocab in a shorter time.

And since Wanikani offers virtually no customization (at least without user scripts), it gets trickier and tricker with those leeches.

I’d deal with them separately:

hiding bc long

I would either somehow suspend them (if you need them some day they’ll come back to you, or maybe your advanced self will understand them easier), or try to intensively study them using context. Example sentences are good for a start, but I feel they do not do a lot for me since there still pretty much context free. When you’re at the novel reading stage, I find the best way to provide context is use a novel you’ve read and try to search for a sentence in that media. Kind of like reverse sentence mining.

Naturally you won’t find every word there and that’s also why I ultimately ditched Wanikani and premade lists for media decks from jpdb and renshuu. I still find Wanikani a great tool for beginners but at later levels it just lacks customization to determine what’s useful for you to study.

5 Likes

Wrt SRS, I basically had the same frustration recently with doing the jpdb deck for 転生王女と天才令嬢の魔法革命 2 | L32. For a long time I had the attitude of “I’d rather be reading” (even though that meant constant lookups), basically for the reason you’re describing. Also imo even words you know are much harder to recall in SRS vs in the wild (reading/listening to things)

When I was doing WK, I found that doing a lot of independent study sessions (via a user script) helped me solve this. Especially bc it would narrow it down to only the ones I was getting wrong (it I could intentionally narrow it). /I also had more free time then. The words that were easiest tho were things I’d already encountered in anime, books, or songs; or thought were fun words.

Anyway idk if any of that rambling is helpful, but fwiw you’re far from the only person with that frustration

4 Likes

For me, I rarely remember the vocab learned this way at all even in short term. Like all the stuff in Wanikani so far I have seen in some form in the wild. And the leeches, I found the best way for me to deal with those is to just focus on a set number of apprentice items per day and a set number of reviews and once it gets over that or close to that, not learn anything new until I get it back down but even then, I still don’t remember a lot unless I’m seeing it regularly.

I use an app (tsurakame as jakeipuu stopped working on ios) but it doesn’t have that feature so instead if it keeps coming up, I just try to get it out the way, when it comes back, it usually has the same issue but I try not to stress too much with Wanikani and just go with the flow. It’s more the review for me than the actual learning while using it. Also tried vocab apps (including Drops and the Genki apps) but those were very much the same issue so ended up dropping them though Drops I will sometimes play around with if I’ve nothing else and I tend to use Scripts (sister app) for kanji writing practice if I’m bored and away from a book or out the house.

I tried using the jpdb decks for キノの旅 and then also for 本好き (tried them for about a month each before delving into the novels) but it didn’t help. I still had to look up any words that I hadn’t learned in the textbooks which turned out to be a lot at those times.

Yeah, after I found it wasn’t helping me much and the reading was working better, I just felt that I could use the time for other things. I definitely have found things easier to recall when reading and getting the context than from just trying to remember when the SRS throws it at me.


Just some random info on how long I've used SRS apps

Been trying with Wanikani since 2018 and have reset several times (highest level has only ever been 14, and previous to this time it was Lv 13 was the highest before my last reset).

The other apps (Anki, Quizlets, Drops, scripts, Genki vocab app, Genki conjugations app, jpdb decks, renshuu) I was using for the first year of learning Japanese (this time) but had used them (except jpdb and renshuu) previously years ago as well while trying to learn via the Japanese from Zero textbooks.

There are others I’ve used on android before I switched to iPhone (such as Kanji tree) but they were independent apps and I had the same issues with them all.


Insight into other peoples experiences is always helpful to me because it either confirms that it’s not just me that’s struggling with it or it confirms that my approach may not be the best one and sometimes that insight is enough to put me on a different, more helpful path to where I want to end up :slightly_smiling_face:

7 Likes

Something that might be useful to think about is that reading is more than just the simple act of memorizing word definitions. Reading is a really complex multi-faceted skill with a ton of different pieces to it, so even if you memorize a ton of words, that won’t necessarily immediately translate to being a good reader. I think about how many people hit level 60 on wk or make it through the 2k/6k anki deck and still struggle to read beginner level stuff.

With all those different skills, too, there’s variance in how naturally each of them come to you. Some people have super good word level vocabulary memory and can learn thousands of words in a month, but still might struggle to make sense of the social registers and implied content in the language, or vice versa. Your own language aptitudes and experiences count for a lot here, if you have tried SRS in many forms and none of them seem to be particularly helpful, then maybe SRS just isn’t the right tool for you right now.

Just because it’s the hot trend in language learning that it feels like everyone else is doing doesn’t mean it’s the only way you can learn a language either: people have been learning languages for a lot longer than anki has been around :laughing:

8 Likes