Product Updates & Casual Natively Discussion

I’ll eventually implement a way to like reviews. If we start getting that many reviews I’ll just add that small feature. It’d be nice way to show appreciation for good reviews anyway :slight_smile:

Yeah, I know adding descriptions would be a plus. I do like the idea of adding the Japanese descriptions as one section and having a separate community powered English description. All in good time :slight_smile:

Yes, I like this too! I’m not sure if AniList has the ‘tag preferences’ for users (great idea), but I do like how they handle potential spoiler tags … I think i’ll be mostly modelling the tagging system from there.

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One thing they don’t handle which would be nice: If you implement a “search by tag” feature, let us choose whether or not to include spoiler tags in the results. Nothing worse than looking for “time travel” and getting a result where time travel is the big plot twist.

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maybe offering a link to deepl could work? something like “translate with deepl” where it automatically copies the text into the translation app. not sure if that is feasible, but at least the user would know it’s machine translated and take the translation with a grain of suspicion. (also deepl does a really good job, mostly ;))

I vote against this. I submit books, I am currently reading/plan on reading, so I genuinely don’t know what’s it about.

Re: Trigger Warnings
That’s a whole can of worms in the book community. It’s a HUGE point of discussion.
They would def. have to be behind a spoiler tag or something and what is considered a trigger? Maybe users could submit content warnings as part of their reviews… like a field in the review form specifically reserved for trigger warnings, and they then get summed up behind a “See list of user submitted content warnings” menu somewhere in the book info. :thinking:

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This still needs API licensing, it costs money sadly. Same for Google.

If Trigger Warnings are implemented, allow me to disable them all together, it’s all I ask.

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I have spent little to no time thinking or even reading about trigger warnings, so I must say I am quite surprised to find out that it’s apparently a massive point of contention. I can’t say I understand why. I don’t have any triggers, and so trigger warnings are not something I care about, but I do care about spoilers. I am guessing that might be where the contention lies: trigger warnings will necessarily point to the content of the work, which quickly falls into spoiler territory.

Why not have a system whereby each user will have to select which trigger warnings they care about (from, say, a list over what exists in the system), and then have the system show only those trigger warnings for them? People who don’t care about trigger warnings won’t see a trace of their existence, avoiding any potential spoilers, people who know they will never ever read anything featuring, say, cannibalism, regardless of how good the story otherwise is, can safely navigate around those, while simultaneously avoiding potential spoilers from other trigger warnings they care less about, and so on.

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That’s similar to what @seanblue proposed earlier in the thread, and I also agree that it’s a nice way to deal with it. That way, no spoilers, except potentially for stuff you would not want to read anyway.

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(I wonder if Brandon already regrets opening the forum with all the stuff that is piling up. :see_no_evil:)

One of the pages I use, has content warnings implemented. This is how they deal with it:
Hidden:
image

Summary (of the most commonly submitted warnings):
image

See all…:

As you can see, the list of potential warnings is vast… and people do not all see things in the same light. :cold_sweat: (And that was from a fairly light-hearted fun novel.)

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People seem to agree on a graphical level of death, grief, and violence, though? :sweat_smile:
By curiosity, do you mind sharing the title of the novel? You can use a spoiler tag if you want.

(Also, I like that it’s possible to give a level to the trigger warnings)

Ha. No it’s good :joy:

I hope it shows though why not everything that seems like an obvious add gets implemented right away… there’s a long list! And while I’d love to talk tags and get a bit into the weeds, this conversation is a bit premature… won’t implement for probably 6 months!

Yeah it can get a little out of control. Obviously if you’re looking at tags you’re going to have to accept a variety of opinions.

Like I said, I do think I like AniList’s implementation - it’s very simple and intuitive imo:

  • one vertical list, ordered by a relevance score. Easily readable
  • when voting on a tag, asks you to specify if it’s a main / major / minor / not relevant theme, which then is put into the score (doesn’t break out the major minor themes, like your image shows)
  • tags can be marked as spoilers, which can be optionally shown by clicking a link
  • no categorization of tags shown (like graphic / trigger warnings… etc), but could optionally have a filter for tag category at the top, if we wanted it

For example, this book (title in spoiler )Berserk:

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It was one of the books in the Wayfarers series by Becky Chambers. A recent favourite of mine. It’s been a long time since I consistantly enjoyed a series this much. That’s why it came to mind, but I don’t remember which book specifically I picked… ^^;

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Oh, space! I love SF. I haven’t read anything else than Japanese books for a few years now, maybe I should diversify a bit…
At the same time, considering it looks like space opera, I can see how you would get genocides happening. Heck, the SF series I have been reading (天冥の標) has most of those trigger warnings, now that think about it (there’s definitely graphic violence, death, medical stuff, xenophobia, a 16 yo gets raped…) yet none of it felt gratuitous, which really affected the perception I had of it. I would not stand most of those things usually, but in context it was “fine” (as in not fine at all, but that was the point).
Huh, I guess even tagging those might be harder than I thought.

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It’s very “soft” SF and character-driven. So if you prefer plot-heavy SF, that’s not for you. :slight_smile: I try to read in all the languages I know well enough… Japanese def. takes the most time, though. :face_holding_back_tears: One day, I’ll get as fast as in English or German… goals tbf… even the speed I can read in French would be sufficient… anything that is faster than now… :see_no_evil:

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I like both, so I’ll keep a note of it, for the far future when I don’t have a gigantic 積読 backlog. :crazy_face:
Edit: my local library has 銀河核へ, the Japanese translation of “The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet”, so I may read that one :flushed:

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I do know another site that doesn’t it, but I definitely can’t mention it in here. When they finally added it, it was a godsend because I was tired of inappropriate stuff flooding my welcome page despite me never interacting with it. Me having those tags blocked makes it where they won’t even appear on the homepage for me unless I specifically search the name of a series that has the tag.

Ngl though, I’m intrigued by the idea that people are considering trigger warnings to be equivalent to spoilers. Spoilers are where someone is going to tell you the whole plot, but a trigger warning is just there to let you know that there is a specific aspect that you might be uncomfortable with. A trigger warning isn’t going to spoil anything by telling you the entirety of how it occurs because that defeats the purpose of the warning. Plus, tons of other sites that host and list series also have these things tagged and most people don’t seem to have an issue with it (though, it seems like people who hate spoilers or consider trigger warnings to be spoilers probably ignore tags, too, huh?). Having “gore” as a tag isn’t a spoiler–that’s a genre/aspect that should’ve been tagged in the first place. Having “smut” tagged isn’t a spoiler–that’s something in the genre that should be made known because it will determine if someone wants to interact with it.

I guess I just find the mindset a bit weird because trigger warnings are the equivalency of moving ratings in America.

Tagging it shouldn’t be difficult because movie’s and television shows have ratings too and that doesn’t seem to be a point of contention. A R-rated movie might say it’s rated R for action, strong language and violence–those aren’t spoilers; it’s letting you know what’s to be expected and why it’s rated that way in case you want to steer clear.

Tags implemented as a whole would be great because then it just adds to the filter system and allows readers to key in on what they’d actually like to be reading. Maybe not tags for every single thing, but I think demographics and base genres might work.

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See my previous example: There’s a tag “time travel”. That could be a central plot point revealed in the first episode / part of the premise. Or it could be a plot twist and therefore a major spoiler. It just depends. Some people don’t care about being told the “what” and only consider the “how” a spoiler, but to me both can be spoilers. For example, even having a tag / trigger warning for “death” could be a spoiler if it’s not the kind of story where you expect to see something like that. Reading a battle royale story? Death isn’t a spoiler. Reading a (supposedly) fluffy slice of life comedy? It absolutely could be a spoiler.

I don’t ignore tags when the spoiler tags are properly hidden. I actually look at the tags on AniList quite often. But I never look at the spoiler tags for something I haven’t read/watched if I have any intention of reading/watching it.

I understand why having tags (trigger warnings in particular) is important to some people, but for me it has to be done in a way that won’t spoil books I plan to read. It may seem extreme, but this is the kind of thing that if not done right could make me stop using Natively (or at least significantly change what parts of the site I’m willing to interact with). That’s how spoiler-averse I am.

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It could even be a spoiler if it’s the kind of story, where it’s a option. Sometimes books make you believe… ah this person is gonna surive, despite how it looked… and then suddenly the turn towards the bad… it’s an emotional rollercoaster that you can’t experience, if you know for certain death is inevitable… But yeah, I have read books where I expected kinda chill, happy vibes because you don’t know the MC is ill and you slowly throughout the book start suspecting but it’s not confirmed until the last third of the story… having death or illness as a content warning would spoil that “twist” completely…

So, personally, I would prefer to have normal tags and content warning tags be a seperate thing. I would even prefer if normal tags are limited to genre (ie SF, romance, fantasy, …) and not include content tags (ie time travel, male protagonist, etc.), but if that is too difficult, just an option, to hide tags completely would be the way for me.

TL;DR: If I have to choose, I’d rather have content warnings for people who need them and simply not look at tags myself to avoid spoilers. :+1:

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:sweat_smile: We’re moving away from the real point :sweat_smile: This is a bit of a red herring–no one has time travel as a trigger, to my knowledge. unless they’re Kurt Vonnegut So there would be no need to put that for trigger warnings. So, yes, time travel would be considered a spoiler though that sort of thing is likely to come up in the description because there would be no reason to reveal that.

But, if the site did add tags in a similar manner to MU where the more important the tag is to the story, the larger it appears, then I could see a particular aversion to wanting to see tags at all. But with that same system, death being tagged in a fluffy story doesn’t mean it’s a major character death, it might just means that death may be mentioned (especially if it’s small). To me, that’s not a spoiler because it’s not going to tell me who, when, where, or how. It’s a warning in case people can’t handle it at all–because if death is something that sets you off, I’d assume that you wouldn’t want to delve into a fluffy slice of life series only to encounter it without warning.

I don’t use anilist so I’ve never seen the concept of a spoiler tag or found it necessary, but I have used sites where the tags are in a place that you don’t necessarily have to look at. I’ve also used sites where certain works will have a banner constantly across the top of the page in a different color because they want to make sure that the person who’s reading it knows that they may encounter certain themes and/or that it isn’t suitable for minors and that it’s a read at your own risk situation.

The ability to blacklist particular tags in general though, would be beneficial when it comes to searching. One of the websites that I use has it as a user setting, so I don’t even have to click “exclude: blah blah blah” every time I search for something to read. but that was probably added after months of people complaining because some people refused to tag certain things. I’m not entirely sure because I was rarely within their discord server. I only popped up after it was added because I wanted to know how to use the feature.

Then wouldn’t it just be better to have an option to toggle of tags in general? That way, people who actually want tags can have them, and those who don’t care for tags don’t even need to worry about having to ignore them or potentially encountering a spoiler.

Yes, I agree. That’s why I think just the base tags of demographics and genre tags would work. I don’t think time travel is considered a “genre,” so sci-fi should work and sci-fi isn’t a spoiler because it’s the genre that it would already be listed under anyways. And then potentially a separate tag section listed as “trigger/content warnings” that would actually have to do with well-known triggers for people with PTSD. If we alienate an entire demographic because they have PTSD or something else that could easily not be triggered, then that’s a true loss. I think the ability to toggle on/off would work with a “trigger/content warnings” as a separate tag section in details because some people have no triggers/aspect that they are adverse to and they don’t care and/or consider them spoilers, while others do.

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Yes, at that point just having genres would be good, as tagging can get incredibly complex and, as we’re already seeing, somewhat controversial. So rather than just general-purpose tags, have genres (always visible) and trigger warnings (only used for users to set search filters). I think having genres is very important, and obviously (for certain people) being able to filter out unwanted content is important, but general-purpose tagging is less necessary.

For an example of a trigger being a spoiler:

おやすみ、夢なき子 | L30
This book I spoil covered the content warnings because the first ~half of the book you simply know that there are women who can’t remember their dreams from childhood. It is slowly hinted at and built up to the reveal that their fathers were drugging and raping them when they were children. Knowing that both pedophilia and incest take place before reading the book would most definitely be a spoiler as it would give away the clues.

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Some perhaps better examples I’ve encountered:

  • A story where the twist was that the supportive organization the MC was using to try and deal with their issues was a non-religious cult trying to pull them in
  • Horror stories like Monononoke where the monster’s form or backstory is only revealed at the end
  • In Fruits Basket, Akito being forcibly raised as the wrong gender

I’d also be worried that trying to figure out a ‘common content warning list’ might be a bit fraught once we get past the really obvious things like death and sexual assault. Although so far everyone on Natively seems to be great at politely discussing things :slight_smile:

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