@nikoru and I were interested in reading this - so starting an informal club, in case anyone wants to join. No set schedule - read at your own pace.
Discussion ground rules
I’m not sure how relevant spoilers are, but putting this here in case. Will delete if irrelevant, but probably still useful to use details tags, to keep things organized
Any spoilers, must be behind spoilers or detail curtains. When we get further in you don’t need to hide details that were revealed in previous chapters.
Always mention where you are in the book when discussing, ideally by chapter so people reading different versions have a clear point of reference.
If you have a question about grammar, vocab, cultural things, etc - ask! That can be part of the discussion too and I’m sure some folks would be happy to help.
Even if you’re reading along later, you are still encouraged to post in the thread
Thanks to your reminder I also pulled out this book from my bookshelf today as I returned home yesterday. I am planning to read one episode per day to be able to let the contents sink in better.
I had roughly heard about this, but I was not aware that there was an exact date to the introduction of guns to Japan: August 1543. This is almost 300 years after the Chinese started to use firearms (which worked somewhat differently, but still): Gun - Wikipedia Interesting that the Japanese did not learn this from the Chinese but instead from the Portuguese.
Katakana is so amazing This is the guy the chapter talks about: Francis Xavier - Wikipedia
He was French and one of the first Jesuits - Wikipedia. The chapter does not mention it but he landed in Japan (in Kagoshima) on August 15th 1549.
Never knew anything about Portugal & Japan having trade - that’s interesting. I was worried it was gonna turn into a war situation
Oh cool, I’ll have to check that out
クリスト教
What do you mean?
This one surprised me - both at the snake of how much Xavier traveled and accomplished, and moreso at how accepting and receptive the populations and leaders mentioned were to the Jesuit missioning. I wish it went more into the why of that - what did the Jesuits offer that was compelling/convincing, how did it interact with extant traditions, etc. It’s interesting how different it is to the (many centuries earlier) fighting btwn Buddhist and indigenous traditions (later called Shintou). Especially for a period called the 戦国時代, I wasn’t expecting this.
Maybe the latter part of Book 1 provides the context for what I’m wondering about
戦国最強ライバル対決! 川中島の戦い
I retained like nothing from this, besides the general geographic area, and the general tactic at the end Really needed a map, and probably to write out the names. I did recognize 毘沙門天 at least. Why does everyone in Japanese history seemingly have multiple totally different names?!
Now imagine you’re living in the dark and very unpleasant Middle Ages, and somebody comes to you and promises all these things. I’m sure I’d have been eager to gain all these nice things! On top of that, we’re talking a buddhist culture, i.e. up until now people were told “if you misbehave you will be reborn as an ant, and you will suffer!”, and now somebody comes along and says “I love you nonetheless and I will heal and comfort you”. Wow!
(Note that this is not an encouragement to believe in God or follow the Christian Church whatsoever, it’s just trying to see Christianity from the perspective of the people back in the day.)
p. 18 戦国最強ライバル対決! 川中島の戦い
This was pretty boring and so random - “ok many people had names and lived in places and fought a lot with other people” kind of story.
Yep same
I think that’s how it was - even up until the start of the 20th century, I think. (I think I saw some wikipedia pages about authors who also had different names as a child.)
p. 26 信長's youth and rise to power
At least now I recognize a name: Oda Nobunaga. Oda Nobunaga - Wikipedia
Unfortunately the story in the book is a bit flavored to make the story more interesting, e.g. the book says that Nobunaga’s mentor Hirate Masahide killed himself because Nobunaga was so misbehaved, but the Wikipedia page states " In 1553, Hirate Masahide, who had been one of Nobunaga’s closest advisors and mentors, committed seppuku. It is generally believed that he did so to admonish Nobunaga, but the actual motive is unclear."
I had vaguely heard about this but did not know any details. I thought it was very interesting how they travelled around Europe! And in the end they spent 8 years abroad. This was not comparable with today’s Japanese tourists’ travels
p. 44 The betrayal of Oda Nobunaga
I thought we would learn a bit more about him, but Oda Nobunaga already dies in this episode.
An incredibly unreliable source btw, tho the information in this case seems accurate enough
That’s a Europe thing though (and the whole “dark ages” thing is a bit of a misnomer in the first place), and even then, this story takes place post-Middle Ages. I’m not sure it makes sense to imagine 1500s southern Japan in this way.
This may be the context I’m missing. Time to do a refresher on Buddhism for myself.
Sure - but my question is: what’s the origin and nature of that?
p26 信長's youth and rise to power
This was really boring… Tho now I know have an idea just how archaic the 〜のじい name appellation thing goes (tho idk what it’s significance is)… And now I know where 駿河屋 comes from. I was awed by the over 40k soldiers thing. How do you even logistically coordinate that many people?!
Wikipedia often states things with too little information, but I don’t see those descriptions as necessarily conflicting. Nobunaga certainly seemed to take it as an admonishment in the book version. 切腹 is so sad - glad ppl don’t do that anymore.
It is a kid’s book tho, so I’d expect the embellishments
Have been super occupied lately, but I’ll try to catch up more soon. It’s interesting, on one hand it’s pretty easy reading. On the other hand, all the proper nouns really slow me down a lot.
I finally caught up with these, and pushed myself through the next section (but really didn’t take it in much), and honestly don’t have anything interesting to say about any of them. Like the mention of the printing press in the Rome story was as exciting as it got for me, and I guess the significance that キリスト教 was now being persecuted, at least in the region they went back to
I’m so glad Nobunaga’s dead, cuz this was all just a bunch of random names to me. The 戦乱のない時代へ 豊臣秀吉の天下統一 section afterwards did have some relevant info, and was probably one of the more interesting battle chapters, since it’s setting the stage.
To be honest, I feel like this text-only is a pretty poor format for communicating a lot of the information so far, and am planning to reread these events in 角川まんが学習シリーズ 日本の歴史 8 天下統一の戦い 安土桃山時代 | L28 - which goes from the introduction of guns to about halfway through the 江戸時代, and features useful things like maps, charts showing people’s relations, illustrations of what the castles looked like & how they functioned, etc. Edit: tho the キリスト教 stuff is in volume 7
I’m gonna try to stick this one out a bit more, and see how the Edo section goes, since I did like the part before Nobunaga pretty well
@nikoru can answer about the format, but you really don’t need any knowledge of pre-Sengoku history to read this volume. So if that’s the only thing holding you back, you should join and give it a try.
Also fwiw I get bored with battle history very easily. So maybe take my critique with a grain of salt.
Thank you for replying so quickly.
Oh dear, I don’t like battle histories either so I guess it’s better not to read this book.
There’s another history book for children being nominated in Non-fiction club now. I’ve voted for that book since I saw the review scores were very high in Amazon
Idk it’s not all battles, and there’s a lot of war in Japanese history (and I assume most other place’s histories) - so you won’t be able to totally avoid it regardless. You should see what you think from the sample on Amazon or Bookwalker
I also voted for that book in the nonfiction club - but this (combined with the manga series I mentioned) is making me reconsider it. I looked at the sample, and unfortunately it never gets past the frame story, so it’s hard to tell what the book will be like
I think my plan for this book for now is to catch up in the manga, and then try reading the corresponding events in both books going forward, and see how that goes.
Oic. Now I’m also having second thoughts about the book
I saw that you have asked if anyone else has the book in that thread.
Based on the poll, it looks like it won’t be picked. Haha
Fwiw that book is starting from the very beginning, and there should probably be a lot of technological and cultural progress (plus eventual legal/societal reforms, due to Buddhist influence) mixed in with any battle stuff.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned about book polls, it’s that you never know where they’ll turn out. It was tied for 2nd place, until I changed my vote last night.
I also pulled out this book from my bookshelf today as I returned home yesterday. I am planning to read one episode per day to be able to let the contents sink in better.
This is the guy the chapter talks about: 
Really needed a map, and probably to write out the names. I did recognize 
