Audiovisual initial feedback and requests

Interesting. :thinking: I’ve updated that as you suggested, and still no luck:


I’m also seeing an odd-looking update on my Activity feed after moving my current time to ep. 5, 0 min:

I was actually thinking about suggesting that as well; it’s such a long list to scroll through, haha.

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Ah. There actually was a bug there, but I’ve fixed it for you :slight_smile:

You can also always just put ‘Any’ if you’re not worried about the location. And then if you see a provider you like, you can click the icon to see a list of the regions it’s available in :slight_smile:

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Whoa, smart. :open_mouth: Thanks for the tip!

Should I be seeing the bug fix now? Or will that come in a later update?

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It should be fixed :slight_smile:

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I’m still not seeing anything, sadly:

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Ah! I see. So there’s a bug with grading from that tv season page (doesn’t ever show the grade prompt for in progress books, need to fix that), but you will find the grade prompt in your account dropdown in the top nav OR in the gradings section of your dashboard :slight_smile:

You banged out two bug reports in one issue!

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Looks like both are showing up fine; thanks! :+1:

What can I say; I like breaking things. :wink:

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Feedback Needed

So let’s chat TV stats! Fair warning, this is getting into the weeds :slight_smile:

The Functionality We Need

Natively needs to know when you watched a tv episode or a partial tv episode. This is important for showcasing your episodes watched or minutes watched over time. Currently, there are three places we can look:

  • Your user TV season start & end dates
  • Your particular user TV episode start & end dates (you can edit these in the episodes section of the tv season page
  • Your watch sessions (these are generated whenever you ‘update your progress’ from your dashboard… and can span multiple episodes.

The Problem

What happens if you generate a bunch of watch sessions and then later on, you edit the start and end dates for a tv season to be way earlier, like sometime last year? What happens if you generate a multi-episode watch session and then go to one episode and change the dates to something other than the watch session? How do we resolve these conflicts?

Proposed solution

  • Priority goes: TV season start & end dates > User TV episode dates > Watch session dates
  • If the total number of minutes watched for a season (i.e the sum of all finished episode minutes) is not applied to a time bucket, apply any remaining minutes at the season ‘end’ date. This situation will occur only when there are conflicts.
  • Implement popup management dialog so that you can manage watch session, season dates & episode dates. Showcase conflicts here.
  • By default, do not add dates to TV episodes when auto marked finished by a watch session or quick marking a season finished. Only add date if individually toggled or edited.

Conclusion
I know it’s a little complicated, but that’s what happens when you have multiple sources of truth. Let me know what you think :slight_smile:

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I wonder if adding in re-watch capability would help in this situation or not? Two questions stick out in my mind:

  • What to do with the system when a user changes dates, and now there’s a conflict.
  • Why would a user change dates to no longer match up, especially between episode start/end dates and watch sessions.

I’m also a programmer by trade, so I’m familiar with the first question. “This scenario would only occur to specific users at specific times, and it’s probably not a general use case, but we need to know how to handle it or things are going to start looking weird.” I think I’m generally in favor of your proposed solution in this case, though I’m not a fan of the last bullet. Natively goes out of its way to collect data, and by default not recording data sounds dangerous. I could easily see a scenario where a user, used to having at least the end date marked, marks a couple of episodes per day/week and doesn’t realize until they have tens of episodes marked done that none have any dates attached. I know I would be annoyed, at least.

The second question comes from just being a regular user here, and trying to figure out why anyone would want to mark ep. 1 of show A watched today, and then go manually change the watch dates to last year (or whatever). Or even weirder, changing the watch date of an episode in the middle of a watch session. One scenario that comes to mind is that maybe it’s technically a rewatch, and the user is trying to “game” the system by having both dates in? (Although I guess most aren’t going to be privy as to how Natively is keeping track of these things…)

Out of curiosity, how is a TV season’s start date checked? Is it by the start date of the first episode, or is it stored separately?

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Really appreciate all that feedback and good food for thought. I don’t have devs to bounce ideas off of! :slight_smile:

On your ‘My Videos’ theres a little ‘edit’ button next to the date. You can also change them from the ‘additional options’ popup. These are stored on the user tv season, not the episodes.

So, imagine that a user comes on and marks a season ‘finished’… no incremental progress at all. Then I auto mark all the episodes finished at that point. Now, what if they come back later and start backfilling their start & end dates? Unfortunately, it’s a likely situation.

This one I agree, seems a bit unlikely and I’m thinking that in the case of editing dates, I simply push you to the popup manager to prevent that issue? Basically push all date editing to one UI that can control the craziness a bit.

To be clear, you’d still have the watch session data, it just wouldn’t be filled in on the little episode popup in the ‘episodes’ section of the UI. However, maybe I can simply surface the session date if that episode is a part of a session and thereby direct them to the popup dates manager from there… hmm.

Does that all make sense?

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Perhaps when the user only marks the season as finished you should save the episode watch dates as null to basically mean “I don’t know, use the season dates”. Then those dates would only be set if the user is manually marking each episode as finished. And if someone is manually doing that it’s probably a show they are actively watching, lowering the chance they change the season dates later.

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Right, agreed… I think that’s how i’ll store it. I think the only difference i’m proposing is if they want to edit the episode date for some reason, you are show the season end date and you are linked to the popup date manager i’m proposing… where you see all the dates of the season, episodes & watch sessions in one place, to prevent conflicts.

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Aaah, I see now. Yeah, that’s definitely going to happen a lot. That actually makes me think it might be worth considering reversing the order of priorities: watch session > TV episode start/end > TV season start/end, since they lose granularity in that order.

Then we get to the question you posed earlier,

I think this is another case of I’d need to see a concrete use case to fully wrap my mind around taking the user’s motives into account to accurately reflect the data. I guess I would still default to prioritizing the watch sessions, since we would have more granular data for that.

Just so we’re on the same page, which popup is the popup manager?

I do think this is a good idea. Also helps you with bugs when you update one UI but forget to change another, etc.

We’re referring to this one, correct?

Anyhow, I would think that you’d want some date to show here, otherwise the user is going to think there’s a bug somewhere: “I just marked this as watched on my dashboard; shouldn’t the date finished populate here?”

What places on the site do you have in mind to show this “master session popup”?

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I actually think it’s a better user experience to have the more granular options be lower priority as it’s harder to maintain the granular ones. Most people just want to edit the dates of the season and not worry about anything else. That’s how i’m thinking about it anyway.

:laughing: I meant the ‘master dates popup’

correct

I do think that I want to indicate that the episode doesn’t have a specified date, but perhaps yeah I showcase somehow it is being ‘applied’ at a certain date. I’ll think on it.

Well, I don’t want too many popups here, so I’m trying to think this through.

Perhaps it’s best that I simply have a ‘watching data’ manager rather than a master dates popper, which would:

  • surface editable season start and end dates
  • allow editing of episode dates
  • allow editing of watching sessions
  • allow adding watch sessions (for backfilling)
  • lay out the items in chronological order

This ‘watching data’ manager could live in the ‘additional options’ popup as a second tab. I eventually could add a ‘data manager’ for books & movies too. The ‘update’ popup could eventually be a tab as well, pushing all these interfaces into on item.

Anyway, back to your original question, I think this sort of consolidated ‘data manager’ would be accessible via:

  • episode editor popup (if you want to edit the date, it would popup the data manager)
  • adding / editing watching session (done via the activity feed, like reading sessions)
  • dropdown on the additional options api

The more I think about it, I think I like this ‘watching data’ manager approach, rather than a simple ‘master dates’ popper.

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:raised_hand:

That’s me! It’s possible I’ll set episode watch dates on the (extremely rare) occasion that I’m watching an ongoing series (so I can rate the ongoing series), but otherwise I just plan to set the season dates. (And when I say “extremely rare” I mean that I’m now watching Oshi no Ko week to week, which is the third anime I’ve ever watched while it was airing out of the hundreds I’ve watched in total.) That said, I don’t necessarily care about the priority order as long as it’s safe from a stats perspective to just set the season dates. I understand that if I do that I could lose some stats granularity when I watch something over a month/year boundary, but I don’t really care about that.

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The second question comes from just being a regular user here, and trying to figure out why anyone would want to mark ep. 1 of show A watched today, and then go manually change the watch dates to last year (or whatever). Or even weirder, changing the watch date of an episode in the middle of a watch session.

I’ve had multiple series where I’ve watched a few episodes in the middle, months before. So say I watched Akatsuki no Yona ep 4-6 in Nov 2022, and then in Mar 2023, I watch eps 1-3 and 7-9. For convenience I might update via the watch session to “watched 1-9”, and then go fix the dates for 4-6.

As an aside, I didn’t even realize that existed until now. The fact that it’s somehow different than the TV Season start/end dialogue, and that it has this “add time time spent” option that the Season dialogue doesn’t have, is really confusing.

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That’s me! It’s possible I’ll set episode watch dates on the (extremely rare) occasion that I’m watching an ongoing series

On the other hand, I set the individual episode dates all the time. In part bc I’m expecting to see that reflected in stats at some point, and in part bc I just like that level of granularity (though it’s cumbersome to do at present).

One piece where I think it’s really relevant is the end of the month. Like if I watch ep 1-24 of a season in Apr, but finish 25-26 in May, I don’t want that to calculate/reflect as if I watched the whole show in May.

Also I have more than a few shows that I’ve spread out over months (and not necessarily in order). In part bc I watched a few eps last year, and then got motivated to watch the rest, when the Videos section got added here. I’m looking forward to eventually seeing that show up in the stats.

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That’s great to hear that you’re using the granularity! I’ve put a lot of work to get it so that Natively is a really flexible platform when it comes to tracking - my perspective is that language learners care much more about granular stats than normal readers / watchers do… like timed reading sessions.

So don’t worry, all your hard work of inputting those dates will pay off. It’s a big part of the site. As you say though, the current system is a little confusing, which is what I think this new ‘data manager’ i’m proposing will fix :slight_smile:

The manual season start dates & end dates are pretty essential in my mind however - it’s pretty key functionality for people who don’t care about the granuarity.

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For sure, I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. The new data manager sounds great btw!! And as always, thanks for all the thought and work you put into everything here!

Auto filling dates, came up earlier. Fwiw, I find it very convenient that the TV Season dialog auto fills the “date finished” for individual episodes. I wish it (optionally) affected the “date started” as well, perhaps via a checkbox? Not the end of the world that it doesn’t, but it seems a bit inconsistent that it affects one and not the other.

Also this may be a “tackle later” thing, but with the stats, there’s also a question of what to do for rewatching in different formats. Like if I watch a show with subs, and then months later watch it JP Audio only, then it feels a bit weird and discouraging to either lose the progress of the first watch, or not have a record of the second watch, since they’re different formats.


Side note, I found a small bug just now. On mobile, with collapsed series view, the TV seasons are listed as “Book #” instead of Season #. Happens for multiple series. Example:

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Yes, I know I often find myself doing the same. :slight_smile:

Rewatch / rereads are a bit intimidating functionality to implement, but needs to done. While people certainly reread things, I think rewatches are especially important, so that functionality will definitely happen at some point.

And thanks for the note on the bug :slight_smile:

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