I hate to say it, but “more [comprehensible] input” is basically it. Also I’m personally of the opinion that listening with text is the most optimal way to improve. I can’t prove that, but I feel like I’ve seen the biggest gains that way
While I did go through things I’d call practice/learn, the thing that really broke me in was listening to ぼっち・ざ・らじお episodes, and just trying to get whatever I could (which at first was mostly picking out words, but by ep 31-35 it was more "I can understand a lot of this).
Idk how many hundreds of anime eps (with JP subs or occasionally no subs) I’d watched at that point - but it eventually all comes together, is the best I can say. (And don’t get me wrong, my listening comprehension still has a ways to go)
I feel like the “comprehensible” part is what’s really getting me; I feel like my listening level is somewhere <=20, but basically any show or whatever below L20 consists mostly of grunts and exclamations. Nihongo con Teppei podcasts (the intermediate ones) I’m surprisingly decent at, but I’m not sure if that’s a result of the format, having listened to one person for hours and hours, or what.
Really? I would love for that to be true for me; I have a bunch of books I’ve got text and audio for, but have hesitated in using the text with. The texts you read and listened to - were they texts you would’ve been at level/above level comprehension-wise anyway?
Do you need to have any familiarity with the Bocchi anime/manga to enjoy that radio show?
I think the “having text onscreen” (either via subs on a show/movie or reading along with a book) is my biggest hang-up at the moment - do they help? Do they hinder? It’s much easier for me to have that text, but is it “cheating”? I feel like I’ve seen a fair number of people online who’ve said, like you, that they either leaned on text or didn’t worry about having used it overall and have still seem solid improvements in their listening, so maybe I’m just worrying over nothing.
This was the only way I read books at the start of last year. Around July I started reading without audio for some books when I realized that my listening comprehension was pulling me along more than my reading.
All of the level 27+ books I’ve finished have been with audio. I could probably read level 27 now, but it wouldn’t be super easy. So for the most part I’m using the audio to read harder books.
I rarely ever have 100% comprehension, but I don’t find ~level 25 without subs frustrating anymore. For podcasts I really like YuYu 日本語. I find he does a good job at mostly talking at a native speed, but he’ll explain words or rephrase difficult topics. I was able to start 4989 American Life with the WK club and I can follow it without scripts or stopping the audio, so he feels like a good stepping stone to native podcasts.
I had this same argument with myself last year
I found a few English language teaching journal articles that showed that kids who read along to audio had better listening AND reading skills in the long run compared to just reading (not sure if anyone tested just listening…). And as a personal anecdote, I feel like my in my head reading voice is stronger the more I listen to audio with text. Taken together I’d say that it’s pretty unlikely that it hinders.
Oh wait, you were talking about listening comprehension
I’d also say no, but if your goal is to be able to listen without text I’d split my time between listening without text and listening to harder things with text. One of the things I’m personally trying to work on is both reading faster and hearing when people talk to each other/over each other, so I’ve been trying to watch some variety shows to help train my ear for that (and bonus because like 1/2-3/4 of shows are just subbed by the shows themselves).
A very long-winded way of saying that I’m using text to push into harder listening for me and try and challenge myself to listen to things that I can listen to without subs raw.
I actually watched this one in the beginning of January due to your review of the show, haha.
What would you say, roughly, is your general comprehension level when you’re watching/listening to something with “good” comprehension for you?
This is a potential end goal, but I think my current listening and reading levels are too mis-matched to be able to apply globally, sadly. Maybe once I can bump my listening up it’d be doable.
Try shows you’re already familiar with to help bridge that gap (even if you don’t understand things, you won’t be completely lost). Also fwiw CCS was probably the first thing I watched and mostly understood without subs (with plenty of concentration), and may be a good choice.
You can verify whether the podcast thing is just due to familiarity. Try channels like Miku Real Japanese, Sayuri Saying, Yuyu Nihongo, etc. the first two are specifically meant for intermediate learners
Not really? It’s mostly just Aoyama Yoshino and the other VAs being silly or telling anecdotes, responding to listener questions, stuff like that. You can do it with any other voice actor radio show, I just happened to be super into Bocchi at the time, and she’s engaging
It’s really the same as furigana, imo. Listening without text is definitely its own skill that will require some additional training. But the thing with that is, you have no way to confirm/get immediate feedback, and you’re less likely to acquire new words.
By adding text you have the ability to link something you know (the written word you’re seeing) with something you don’t (the semi-familiar blob of sound you just heard). If it’s a word you already know, but just didn’t recognize, that gets added to your (metaphorical) “how this word sounds” registry.
When you’ve developed that enough, raw listening becomes easier, bc you’ve both expanded your vocab and have more “how the word sounds in real speech” data. So ime it’s quite beneficial.
Oh man, I’m trying to remember what I’ve even watched recently that has a Japanese dub as an option. I’ve mentioned it in another thread, but I don’t watch much in English anyway, so my options feel limited. I suppose I’ve seen https://learnnatively.com/season/12a919ef7f/ and https://learnnatively.com/season/e1d659853a/ in English, but honestly I really doubt the usefulness of watching them sans subs at the moment. Maybe with subs, but I’d need to take some time to go hunt them down.
That’s a good idea; @shitsurei (and others) have mentioned YuYu 日本語 quite often, so maybe I’ll try them.
Sweet, maybe I’ll check it out, then, just for some variety.
Those are all very good points, and match up well with the issue of my brain not being to link sound with a word I already can read, which I’ve noticed before.
I’d say uncomfortable is in the mid to high 80s and comfortable is in the 90-95% comprehension. I typically miss single words, or I don’t know what an onomatopoeia (or other adverb) means, but I rarely miss entire sentences.
Oh also you can give kids audiobooks a try!
Specially, the 放課後ミステリクラブ 1金魚の泳ぐプール事件 | L22 series is pretty decent entertainment-wise. A bonus hack that I’ve done before with more difficult audiobooks is to download the book sample and start reading along to that. That should get you through the character and plot introductions and serve as kinda a runway for the rest of the book audio-only.
I tried listening to a ごちうさ radio show a few times, but I just get distracted so easily. I’m not sure I ever finished an episode. (They also haven’t had one in a while.)
It’s interesting how different our experiences are here lol. Though I suppose all the SRS I did was more geared towards reading than listening.
One thing I’ve been doing to help with that feeling is to tweak the subtitle offset so that the subtitles are behind the audio. It means I still get the subtitles when I’m like “Wait, what was that?”, but I do have the time to try and process it from the audio information first.
One thing that I’m really missing is some “casual listening material”. Like I can listen to N5 level stuff as background listening, like Shun or Teppei for beginners and be pretty strong at understanding that. But wow is it boring at this stage.
If I go full “engage Japanese learning” mode I can handle like simple slice of life anime raw, or other anime with Japanese subs. Or harder podcasts (like 4989 American Life which the WK anime podcast club is doing).
But as soon as I’m not 110% engaged, my listening ability just vanishes. Which means listening is still a pretty intensive activity if I want to get anything from it it feels like.
Jimaku.cc or kitsunekko.net after my usual sources, and have most things
That seems generally right to me (audio or otherwise). When I’ve watched stuff in the uncomfortable range (80-90%), like 星降る王国のニナ S1 | L28 (no subs) やり直し令嬢は竜帝陛下を攻略中 S1 | L28 (some JP subs) - there was enough I could understand that I enjoyed it. Later on I’d pause to check EN subs at times, bc I was missing too much plot, or something that seemed important. And then re-listen to that line once or twice.
Otoh ささやくように恋を唄う S1 | L20 is near 100% comprehension, at most I missed like 3 words an episode. I can follow with low effort. アオのハコ S1 | L24 is probably 95% range. Occasionally there’s a sentence I’m probably not quite getting correct, but I can follow as long as I don’t get incredibly distracted.
The thing I like with these kinda shows is tou can get distracted, and go in and out a bit (as long as you don’t start something else), and it kinda doesn’t matter. It definitely requires concentration and will saving throws tho yes I played too much D&D as a kid
So I either do them when I’m walking (with the assumption that I will get distracted), or when I’m laying down and not doing anything else anyway. Bluetooth headphones can help, since I can put the phone far away, to minimize distraction
Derailing the topic, as usual this reminds me, headphones are another recommendation I have for listening comprehension. I have some Bose headphones that a previous employer gave us (hooray for working in tech in the 2010s ) and use them almost every time I do listening. I don’t think you need anything nearly that fancy, but I do find over ear headphones to be better than earbuds. Really clearly hearing the audio helps a lot.
I really should be better about moving my phone away when I’m trying to get anything done… but at least I’m willing to admit to myself that I was distracted and tend to go back (if I care enough).
Interesting, tho I’d also include all the time you spent doing SRS as part of this. I did stop all SRS for a good year or so, and I think that may have hampered me somewhat.
What do you mean about gearing SRS more towards reading? How would one do that?
Oh yeah, it’s amazing how much difference those make
I’ve only ever used earbuds. I don’t find quality makes a huge difference, as long as it’s not like airport headphones. Otoh listening without headphones, somehow my comprehension nosedives.
Wanikani: Kanji + Vocab: type in readings and translation
Bunpro: Fill in the blank in this Japanese sentence according to guidance
JPDB: Vocab + sample sentence, flip card, did you get it right
Both of them, you’re given text, and tested on your ability to produce the appropriate text in return. While they both have autoplay options to say the word after you answer correctly, you’re not being tested on audio → recall in any way, which is why I feel they’re more geared towards reading and writing.
At my very beginning, I did JLAB which was a bit more balanced, you’d get a card and it would play the audio immediately and there was text also if you wanted to read it, and then you gave yourself a yes or no. That’s a little more balanced towards listening and reading than the above.
Interesting (mine is the same btw, plus Anki on and off ). jpdb has that option as well (unless you mean there’s a delay btwn the audio and the text).
Audio-first SRS on a word level sounds not very useful to me. But maybe that would be different earlier on? At this point if I were gonna do something like that I’d just use actual anime and flip subs on and off (Animelon is basically made for that sorta thing; or Subs2srs, import to Anki, and modify the card type not to show text on the front)… Or Audiobooks, tho the seek controls on those aren’t always so great, depending on the player
Finished マリア様がみてる 10 レイニーブルー | L28 - took longer than I wanted cuz of work. The reading is going fairly smoothly though. Still need translation, but like a lot less than before.
I’m super hooked on this section of the story (it’s probably my second or third favorite arc in terms of painful drama), so I’m just going straight into vol 11. I should have done jpdb reviews for 10 while the forums were down earlier, but nbd. Edit: it turns out I’m hungry, cuz I’ve barely eaten in hrs… so maybe I’ll take a break and look through the jpdb deck
I’ve mentioned it in another thread, but I don’t watch much in English anyway, so my options feel limited. I suppose I’ve seen 
(They also haven’t had one in a while.)